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Foot Surveillance Training vid - thoughts?

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Post by Sabre 9/2/2013, 17:54

[youtube][/youtube]

My only thought was Charlie needs to hang back a bit, if the subject glances to the right he could easily ping him, the commentator/trainer says Charlie should be level with the subject (at his 3 o clock) but if he hangs back he could increase his pace slightly when the subject approaches the corner to clear it for Alpha. Is it a good idea to be so close to the `10-2`?
Wouldn`t mind hearing the thoughts of the more experienced among us.

(This is obviously in the public domain so doesn`t breach Opsec and a popular International Bestselling Book looks at this in some detail!)
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Post by Chris Turnbull 10/2/2013, 09:11

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting.Laughing
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Post by exploresecure 29/3/2013, 12:35

H Sabre

You are absolutely right, C would very very very rarely be opposite unless there was reams of cover and !!! He even then blows his own case for C at the end of the video. I hate to seem negative on one of my first posts but whoever the guy is commentating does not seem to know what he is talking about... No use of covert radios?? Two people in each A,B,C position?? I would advise people to discount this and look elsewhere for some good SOPs.

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Post by Mike M 19/3/2014, 21:32

Ok I am currently up to about 4mins. I will give my take on it.

Regarding the positioning of the C in busy streets, I have been 20m ahead of the subject if a hazard has been identified. Flexibility and utilising effective cover is key.

For anyone wondering, I am Police Level 2 Foot, Police Level 1 Foot & Mobile.

The person at 'C' is generally the most important member of the team in an ABC formation. They are considered to control (remember C for control) the rest of the team, despite A giving the commentary.

In this scenario, it would be acknowledged much sooner that they are approaching the hazard (junction), the eyeball would get handed over from the A to the C earlier, thus allowing the A and B to hang back whilst the C gave commentary and then called them through individually.

Ok, so now C has commentary and is 'controlling the situation' it is now time to call A through. But, they do not go directly in to A position as described. They go to the C position. The C position is always the first position to gain after any negotiation of a hazard. So now we have the original C and the secondary C. The original C is still commentating and has control and has not yet handed over the eyeball.

Now he calls B through. B now establishes the A position. Once he has this, the original C can handover the eyeball to the new A.

So now we have a new C and a new A. Guess what?

The original C now drops in to B, completing the ABC foot team. If in doubt CAB CAB CAB.

Much much smoother than what is shown. None of this catching up bollocks.

Dont get me started on alleyway drills where you have 3 C positions at one point during the maneuverer!!!

I will continue to watch the rest of the video...

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Post by Mike M 19/3/2014, 21:39

Oh dear, crossing the road drills. Why make it complicated?

Subject crosses.
C becomes A. (Original A hands over the eyeball)
A becomes C.
B remains B and crosses when safe to do so.

Simple.

Next...

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Post by Mike M 19/3/2014, 21:44

I am under the impression that before a job starts people are nominated as A, B & C and then they are told to stick to it?

if you have 3 hazards, then you will have done time at C, time at A and time at B all within a couple of minutes, and it will continue to change like that for the rest of the day after every hazard you approach and negotiate!!!

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Post by Mike M 19/3/2014, 21:54

If in a two man team, then you would firstly adopt the C position, then the A.

C would control as I described.
C would call A through.
A now adopts NEW C position.
Now have two C's.
C (original) now adopts NEW A position.
Now have C and A again.

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Post by Sabre 20/3/2014, 05:26

Excellent posts, thanks for your input Mike.
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Post by Mike M 20/3/2014, 07:15

The bits regarding radios are some of the most stupid things I have ever heard.

Yes, the foundations of surveillance are on hand signals, and an effective foot team learns not to rely on radios for team admin and team positioning, leaving the mic available for the eyeball and commentary on the subject.

Lets have a typical commentary for an effective ABC team on this scenario. I will include FULL commentary, but when you get better you can cut out a lot of the VP of "hold back" and "come through" and use hand signals instead.

3 x SV operators: 

Mike, starts at A

Sabre, starts at C

Chris, starts at B

Mike: "Mike has the eyeball, still walking still walking, nearside pavement."
(As mentioned earlier, hand over the eyeball nice and early (15-20m before subject gets to hazard)

Mike: "Still walking still walking, nearside pavement. Sabre, eyeball to you."

Sabre: "Sabre yes yes, Sabre has the eyeball. Still walking still walking nearside pavement. Mike, hold back."

Mike: "Mike, yes yes."

Sabre: "Chris, hold back."

Chris: "Chris, yes yes."

Sabre: "Still walking still walking nearside pavement. Left left left on to , still walking nearside pavement. Mike come through." (Or hand signal)

Mike: "Mike, yes yes." (Mike now moves to C)

Sabre: "Chris come through." (Or hand signal)

Chris: "Chris, yes yes. Chris has the eyeball. Still walking still walking nearside pavement. Queen street" (Adopted A position. Continue commentary with shop names nearside or offside etc).

Sabre: Now moves to B.

Job done. Seems a lot but in real terms the above would have taken seconds and the flow would have been nice and smooth.

I am as passionate about surveillance as Rich H is about CP. I have taught to Govt Agencies and some of the training manuals have been appalling and some of the tactics even worse. But yet I wasn't allowed to give the course a good overhaul because it would upset the other instructors (put their noses out of joint). But this is what happens when you have instructors from different backgrounds (some from Box, some from Squint, some from Hereford etc) all come in and try and write a course and use bits if this and bits of that and it all comes together in to a messy mush but yet they think they have this amazing 10 day course. The Police system works for the Police. The Chicksands system works for the Int Corps. The MI5 system works for them etc etc. Dont bloody throw it all together.

I have never sat in on a commercial surveillance course. I do hope that companies teach it better than the above video, because I dread to think sometimes how much I would actually cringe if the above is the level of training people are receiving.

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